Sorry, another question - TELEGRAM?

I agree with where you’re coming from. really. it just raises the larger common question of who can you really trust – we’re all trying to identify the lesser of, well, all evils. which i think proves intriguing for many privacy enthusiasts since the question provokes creativity in finding a solution.

this isn’t exactly what i was going for. it’s like the difference between “hacking” someone’s root pw (which was set to password), vs. finding something like… well, here’s the segue:

right, and looking from afar, it looks whatsapp is basically secure as signal then, right? does this mean NGO Group also owned all Signal users with CVE-2019-3568? i mean…

WhatsApp implemented their own implementation of the complex SRTCP protocol, and it is implemented in native code, i.e. C/C++ and not Java. During our patch analysis of CVE-2019-3568, we found two newly added size checks that are explicitly described as sanitation checks against memory overflows when parsing and handling the network packets in memory.

As the entire SRTCP module is pretty big, there could be additional patches that we’ve missed. In addition, judging by the nature of the fixed vulnerabilities and by the complexity of the mentioned module, there is also a probable chance that there are still additional unknown parsing vulnerabilities in this module.

…and we can definitely shame Telegram for not open sourcing their ways, but the opening line of the conclusion above doesn’t instill much confidence in the alternatives.

I can’t :). Lying about security? Well that’s good enough for me (coming from you) to pass it over. Thanks.

Very well put.

The end-to-end encryption is theoretically as secure as Signal, that’s correct. You still have to trust the app itself though. For all you know your phone itself sending screenshots of all your messages to Facebook for “analytics” or whatever. They’re also planning on introducing advertisements :thinking:

I wouldn’t recommend WhatsApp by any means, I just also wouldn’t recommend Telegram secure chats necessarily when Signal and Wire exist.

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Jonah - Do you use XMPP at all?

I don’t, I basically only use Matrix nowadays.

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Interesting. Is that for privacy/security reasons or purely due to functionality? I suspect the latter.

Do you think there is a big difference in privacy/security between just joining Riot and hosting your own Matrix/Synapse server?

Probably not a huge difference, because if you send messages to other homeservers you have to trust them as well anyways. If you use end-to-end encryption for your chats it doesn’t matter which homeserver you use.

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Cool thanks. I would certainly be using any and all security features I can, whether self hosted or not. So encrypted chats on Riot would be pretty much as good as you can get these days. I may try it out, it only has one competitor - Wire. Maybe I will use both.

Since you’re a regular matrix user, do you know if you can do screenshare during an audio/video call?

I don’t believe so, but I must admit I’ve actually never made any audio/video calls on Matrix before :stuck_out_tongue:

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I do Audio / Video calls all the time on Riot/Matrix , They both work great!. The one thing Riot is still bad at is screensharing.

Excellent. When you say it’s bad at screensharing, are you saying it does have it but it just doesn’t work well yet?

Riot has two ways to video conference, one is built into riot. (Works great for one on one video / audio calls, as it is peer to peer and E2E encrypted) and it has the feature to use a Jitsi plug in for 2 or more people. On the jitsi conference, the Screenshare button is not working. On the other hand for the one on one video calls there is a Screenshare feature, It works Pretty well but it is hard to find and afaik only the person who starts the call can share the screen.

So you can not change that during a call.

Well that sounds damn good to me! Thanks.

PS One thing that confuses me slightly, and maybe it’s due to people regurgitating information they read on (often old) websites, is that most people seem to think Riot isn’t very secure. I keep hearing people saying “you can make it more secure if you host it yourself” and stuff like that, which suggests it isn’t very secure/private out of the box. You said P2P and E2E. That sounds damn private and damn secure to me. Some people say the encryption is in beta so not reliable yet, other people say the whole thing is beta and unreliable, and other people say it’s all working perfectly and is VERY secure and private!! If I understood tech stuff (especially cryptography) then the simple answer is to test it all myself! Sadly I am just a patsie :smiley:

Riot doesn’t have E2EE enabled by default for even private chats yet (but it’s said to be coming) and it stores a lot of data it doesn’t necessarily need.

I have understood that the screenshare is hidden under pressing shift when calling or something as it’s experimental and I remember hearing something about it requiring running XMPP stack?

Ha ha. see what I mean! Riot is out again :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:
I will come back to it in a month or two and have to suss this all out for certain. I have read SO many sites (I thought Matrix site too) saying that it IS fully encrypted.

Just out of interest, when you say it stores a lot of data it doesn’t need, do you know what sort of data that is? No worries if not. Thanks as always Mikaela

Sure, even if I should rephrase and say that the information may be needed temporarily, but not stored forever like is currently being done (as far as I am aware) and if I delete a message in my opinion the message should be deleted:

Synapse also keeps log in the database of each time device connects to the server and this is stored forever as currently there is no mechanism to remove it. This data includes, IP address, device fingerprint, user-agent and precise time. With one db query someone can get entire connection history on a user when, from where and which device.

Server side logging in case of matrix since you cant remove anything and everything you say (even redacted messages) is stored forever without any way for users to change it is at this moment anti-feature privacy wise.

I think privacy wise xmpp is more suitable and deserves more exposure rather then being treated as an obsolete technology that noone uses.

As for redaction, avarage joe thinks redacted means gone. It nowhere states otherwise. Also as far as metadata goes on matrix, everything you do on all devices is carefully stored in the database forever.

to give you some more details.
Since Tuesday, December 6, 2016 12:58:36.296 AM I have been seen (and recorded in db) 14991 times by matrix server. This entries consist of:
user_id, access_token, device_id, ip, user_agent, last_seen - timestamp

As for meta of the rooms most essntial and basic (all in one table) data stored is:
room_id, is_public, creator(user_id)

And thats basics. Db stores all joins and leaves for each room to the point I can see which color people selected for the room.

however with matrix you can be sure it [metadata] isnt removed even from the originating server.

I also recommend reading other comments from muppeth in that discussion (whom I quoted and who is the Disroot admin by the way). We also have an open issue about Riot and recently got more news on how even self-hosted instances send data to

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Wow, thank you Mikaela - that certainly doesn’t inspire confidence in privacy does it?!
So instead of Wire and Riot, I think I will go more towards Wire and XMPP

I have re-read your last few posts Mikaela and, due to being totally STUCK here, I have decided to change my approach slightly. I think I am going to split my contacts into THREE distinct categories:

  1. People who can ONLY use Skype and other mainstream nasties (with whom I rarely discuss much, and when I do, it;s a few messages back and forth about business etc

  2. People who can and will install apps to try out with me, but who are not technically skilled enough to tackle anything more complex than a brief sign up form, and running a very user-friendly app (so someone who could use Wire ok, but would have a cardiac arrest if asked to set up XMPP :D)

  3. People who can install and do tech stuff at least to my standard (which isn’t great, but better than an average granny user!)

This change is the only way I can make things decidable (not a word, but it works!)

So… Even though cat 1 I may try to move from Skype to Wire or other easy things (I just want rid of microshaft), I CAN continue with Skype if absolutely necessary. I hate it, but it has to be.

But for most people I will try to move them to cat 2. I am torn between Wire and Riot really. Riot seems a better choice for features and long term likelihood of becoming bigger and more widely used.

Wire/Signal/XMPP maybe - those will be for my cat 3 people.

If you have any comments I would be glad to hear them as always!

P.S. Re Riot - I read your posts again and it seems that even though they keep records of device connections, IP and times, that’s only metadata. I don’t really care about that as most people I speak to show up in my cell phone logs anyway, I dont deal with criminals or wanted enemies of the state etc!! The main desire here is to just get some damn PRIVACY on the content of my conversations. I don’t know why but to think that people are recording or listening to every word I say, well I just can’t live with that. If I was sat in a bar talking to a friend, having a PERSONAL conversation, and some guy was listening over my shoulder, I would tell him to do what I want Skype to do, namely f**k OFF out of my life!! :smiley:

So metadata isn’t a problem for me (well, it is in principle, but in practice it isn’t). But being able to have a PRIVATE conversation, that would be nice just from a privacy angle.

PS, another part of my problem is devices and app compatibility. I have just got a rooted Android Motorola G phone. I was thinking of installing on there. But I am not sure if that means everyone I want to talk to also needs to have Conversations installed, which means they MUST have android. I have iphone and mac desktop machines, so I wonder if there is a way to make work on those? does look DAMN good for privacy, including metadata, forward secrecy, E2EE and deniability, so it seems to tick every single box (until someone unticks one here :D) - BUT it’s only available for android. This privacy stuff sure ain’t easy is it?!

I am sure I ruled out Ricochet a year or so ago, but maybe prematurely before I learned a lot more about this stuff. I just read another great post on this board where the author said he uses it. I looked at it and it looks good, if what it says on this page is true -

Anyone care to blow that out the water for me? :smiley:

I think Riot isn’t that much easier compared to XMPP, unless you hate the people you communicate with and want them to follow the defaults registering on by default and suffering slowness and federaton issues due to the server having too many users. I am also let to understand that Riot Android is being rewritten and thus you may have issue sometime in the future if your contacts have to remove Riot and install Riot X or something like that, I have no idea if they are going to publish RiotX as an update to the existing Riot.

Did you ever encounter Quicksy or Kontalk by the way?

No, they just need an XMPP client which preferably supports OMEMO

I don’t remember which clients are for macOS, but they exist and I hear Monal recommended for iOS.

There is also always or for web.

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